LJB Clinic Notes

My Photo
Name:
Location: Vermont and New Hampshire, United States

Welcome. Thank you for bringing your curiosity here. I write to make sense of my life and to be heard, understood perhaps. I hope this makes sense to you. Together we can share some moments thanks to the vibrant dynamic connections that are possible through this amazing webworld. Even if I sit alone as I type, I am not feeling isolated, not from you, not from myself. All contents on this blog are my original writings and artwork and photography (unless attributed to another) and protected by copyright law.

  • Leslie Desmond
  • Harry Whitney
  • Piper Ridge Farm
  • Joe Wolter
  • The Horsey Therapist
  • Monday, February 26, 2007

    Harry Whitney Tue Feb 13, 2007

    [I've put Harry's comments that I took down word for word in bold italics. There are more of his words here, but when I wasn't 100% certain what he said word for word, I did not quote him as such.]

    'Surging' on Ace -- he moves up rather than forward, energy up but without being asked for it. Energy up means horse is having his own thought.

    Doing something to help the horse let go of thought that triggers that increased energy versus energy up and I'm thinking how to move him.

    BD suggested SH give the horse Rescue Remedy. Harry said: A lot of times, if you take the Rescue Remedy, the horse will be fine.

    PV -- what is important from the horse's point of view? -- asking what happened with Harry that the horse looked to him a week later (in a prior clinic). Was it that Harry was being black and white? That he put his focus on getting the horse's attention?

    How can there be clarity if they aren't mentally with you? If they're not mentally with you, how can it be clear?

    Can't separate those things. Horse won't get anything from your presentation if he's not paying attention.

    Clarity in everything. Clarity about horse staying present and clarity about what you present.

    And, is that what meant so much to him?

    Ray Hunt is quoted as saying: They know when you know and they know when you don't.

    It's not necessarily what one does. Horse picks up on some sort of intent and horse knows you have faith it's going to come through. Another person has a doubt and horse might read our question mark and know we don't have certainty.

    PV: understands clarity is really important and attention is really important.

    Harry asks about yesterday with Legs -- what did we see differently between what SH did and what Harry did? When Legs started to get trouble, Harry tried to hang in there and keep presenting something that caused him to have to search for the better spot within himself, then it was over. He didn't say 'dang you for feeling bad' then leave him hanging. He kept wiggling the flag until he saw a change then stopped and said 'thank you.'

    Poor timing, or good timing with poor intent, leaves horse feeling criticized.

    As someone said, "We're always chasing a reaction."

    Harry and Legs -- trying to stay in touch with what's happening in the present and reqarding/noticing/marking when he makes a change on his insides.

    It's not about what he's doing, but about how he's feeling.

    In the wild, a very troubled horse would be coyote food.

    A horse kicking another horse -- aggression -- based on insecurity, would not want to avoid other horse. Cranky/unresponsive?

    A less responsive a horse is, the more trouble it is every time we ask something of the horse.

    SH: let's make this marriage work rather than be black and white about the approach.

    My question about 'riding the line' versus 'riding the path' -- Harry's story about teaching someone to drive out in a field between two ditches.

    Feeling of the horse, then interpreting it -- two parts.

    There is a feeling of freedom of forwardness that you can get at a walk. Mental change and feeling of freedom when a horse is let go -- at a walk, you don't need speed.

    You're working on the external to get the change even though it's an internal change you're getting.

    Analogy: for leading them into where they should be versus chasing them into it. Carrot on stick in front of horse versus beating their butt with a carrot on a stick.

    Thought for today: me using less leg activity for forward and more thought coming up through legs, etc.

    Harry never ever asked Legs to go because he wanted first to have a connection. Legs chose to go, a lot, but Harry never asked him to go. He was asking Legs to be here and settle and allow connection.

    Ziggy last week: Harry rode her then BD was a little scared to ride her afterwards. It felt so unusual to have her so responsive, so ready.

    Told a story about a fellow who said his mare was "notional" -- she a notion to do it and she did. She had a notion not to do it, and she didn't.

    It can trouble a horse if you get him to let go of a thought without having a place for him to go. You need to ride with a place to be.

    PV got her horse "here" then dropped him -- too much of a release.

    How difficult or easy did he let go of a thought? Where is he in his understanding of what you are doing? All goes into your judgment call about what to do there, how close to ride the line, how wide are the ditches.

    Work at not only him letting go of a thought but helping him know where to be.

    SH in round pen: Harry: I don't want his attention all the time but when I do want it, I want it available. If it's not, I'm sure going to do something about it.

    We joked about this being "Judgment Call Horsemanship".

    Legs -- he has to do other things while he's arranging himself to get with SH. Like BD filing her nails while listening to conversation per Harry's report. So now maybe don't be so picky about him lowering his head while he's turning to come in. Later SH might be more particular.

    Sometimes, you don't need to get bigger, you just need to hang in there.

    Other things to do with him (in addition to round pen activities) to be getting him to slow down, think, get with you mentally and be available: in and out of gate, over poles, etc. but watch how he's feeling not so much what he's doing.

    Mouthing the lead rope -- give him something to focus on and it will stop. Like with pawing.

    Pawing -- I know he doesn't feel very good about being here so how about trying this? Or this?

    These patterns can change. He may not have to blow today because he started in a better spot today and maybe he can settle without having to blow.

    SH: There's a spot where Harry was being more supportive before he got stronger.

    'Keep asking till the back up is straight' doesn't mean back up straight away from you. It can be he gets his thoughts lined up to go back straight but not necessarily away from you.

    He couldn't hear me when I asked him to stop so I asked him to back up and there's a stop there before he backs up.

    That straightness will bring a change. You'll only get the straightness when you get a change of feeling.

    Helps him physically to find the straightness so he can find the OK inside.

    A horse's best is straight, not quantity but a desire to be here, present, taking care of this.

    PV in round pen: Horse takes over running the program if he sees we're not running it at an adequate level.

    Fulfill the role of leadership in a way that makes sense.

    Going with him in the round pen, walking when horse is walking, more energetic when he's trotting.

    Before you get on a horse, get him OK with walking with him, like at his hip, while touching him.

    Thor had been made to flee (when lunging in his former life) so he's unsure, he thinks PV is confused (because she wants something else from him).

    I don't care where his nose is. I care about how he's feeling. What does his nose tell us? Get him feeling better. Don't kill him for turning his butt in on you. If he felt good enough, he wouldn't be trying to protect himself ... I don't get worried about a horse's nose tipped to the outside.

    Be infatuated with how he's feeling inside.

    We have to prove to this horse that we're not going to get him. Ask him to go while standing at shoulder and go with him when he walks. He shouldn't have to think he has to save himself.

    PV saddling in round pen -- she took her time for him to be OK without halter or contraint.

    Me and Cajun in round pen then riding in arena, walk, trot, canter with saddle. He's more responsive today. It worried me a little having more life when ridden. Harry directed me to trot, whoa, backup, turn on hinds, trot, whoa, etc. -- lots of transitions to check his responsiveness and build my confidence. We did lots of trotting and some cantering. He has a big trot.

    SH and Harry in round pen. Helped horse let go with Harry really close to him. We work on lead but it's not the same feel as when we ride and get a little scared and ride close to the horse. Working close on the lead line replicates that more closely.

    All directions should be just as free -- forward, backward, sideways, shoulder over, hind over.

    Slippery saucer feeling -- it shouldn't weight anything to go any direction with life. (Slippery saucer was phrase from a person describing when you're doing dishes and put a saucer that is covered with suds down on a surface that is wet, referring to how easily it slides.)

    My riding lesson with SH:
    - seat bones
    - energy down back of thighs and calves through heels
    - puppet strings hold up my shoulders and rib cage and hold out my shoulders
    - 'engage belly' means push belly out, not pull it in.
    - contact through inside of thighs
    - transitions -- ask for trot and start posting right when horse trots = horse trots right when I start posting. No gray area, either we're walking or we're trotting.
    - down transitions -- make it clear, no sitting trot as horse slows but when I stop posting, horse walks.
    - hands on reins like squeezing sponges tells horse to slow.
    - right shoulder back through turns to left!

    Harry Whitney Mon Feb 12, 2007

    [I've put Harry's comments that I took down word for word in bold italics. There are more of his words here, but when I wasn't 100% certain what he said word for word, I did not quote him as such.]

    SH's 4 year old reminds me of Rusty when she describes him -- mentally all over the place; intrudes on boundaries of people and horses; gets aggressive when you get close; insecurity based turmoil inside. Like Bo as well. Maybe he was raised separate from other horses, never learned how to get along in a herd.

    Aggressive in play versus aggressive in defensive ownership.

    Setting limits without squelching his curiosity and playfulness. Horse doesn't mess with electric fence so he can learn to not mess with human but still be curious and playful.

    Auditor asked about horses who want to be tactile with mouth -- any common theme? Harry: no. Easy to become biters if uneasy inside themselves. Not necessary that it happens, can simply be a curious mouthy behavior. Mouthiness can be related to lifestyle when without 24/7 grazing, nibbling, munching, etc.

    Horses who do not want to be caught -- this may reflect more interest in what other horses are doing; may reflect unease about what human offers.

    Insecurity – can it significantly change? Versus should I be accepting of how it is and resign myself to offering more support as a regular thing? Ie, can Rusty ever be like Soli?

    Cradling – leg contact that lets horse know “I’m here, I’m here” – a comforting thing.

    Re riding away from the herd discussion: partly let them work it out, or keeping horse from being aggressive, partly get better at keeping them with me mentally so we can go places – responsiveness for example.

    People don’t work on these things till they need them and then it’s too late. …Take time to work on them before it gets important.

    Each of us has to decide how much focus and intensity we want to be riding – is it enjoyable to ride this way?

    IM asked – how to bring up that amount of focus, like when we get into a little trouble, without the horse’s situation creating the adrenaline?

    SH talked about riding through a blow up. Harry: times when horse lets go and lets down after a big old fit, even at the end of a lead rope. It’s over and they go on, they find out it didn’t change things. And it’s OK to work at it in little ways so it never gets to that.

    There's a difference between worried and scared.

    Experimenting by horses – if you can let them experiment.

    Maybe try to avoid a big fit because things can go awry too easily. Harry prefers to avoid the big stuff. (But he's certainly willing to step up to the plate when we bring him our big stuff horses!) Don’t want the horses to think the solution is to get rid of us when they are pretty troubled.

    On horses that are pretty confirmed that having a little fit is the answer – then set it up so they might want to offer a big fit – so let them have the big fit and find out that doesn’t work either and they can give it up.

    SH in round pen with Legs.

    Harry: get bigger when horse is unresponsive, not when he’s not paying attention but when he’s not responsive. He might get bigger when his attention isn’t there.

    Harry in round pen: he won’t let Legs come in when he’s feeling bad even if he’s feeling better than at the start. Harry wants to see him try harder, put more effort into seeking a better spot.

    Maybe before, he went, but he wasn’t changing how he was feeling.

    I’m going to do the best I can being intolerant of him not searching for a better place.

    I’m going to hang in there with quite a little pressure until he tried to find something better.


    He comes in crooked – he has a plan then, he doesn’t need to have a plan.

    (Me: thinking about attachment disorder and containment with Dan Hughes PhD as a helpful model for some horses who aren’t looking for human contact as comfort.)

    This is not about not letting him look around; it’s about him not checking in. He’ll let go of a thought but it goes right by – he doesn’t check in with me.

    Change – moving less but emotionally building up. Physically he knows what Harry is asking but he doesn’t know that Harry is asking for something else. The closer I get to those emotions, the more troubling it is.

    Horse knows something about the good feeling but he’s not searching for it; it doesn’t have enough meaning.

    He started out thinking what I was doing with the flag was a performance thing.

    Hang in there with some pressure in those spots that don’t feel good until he puts some effort into checking in. Some day he may put some effort into seeking that spot. He’s finding it but he’s not really hunting for it.

    Flag means:” you gotta change something”. When horse got lost going, Harry blocked him until he checked in.

    It’s foreign to him to be asked to change his feelings. He’s pretty used to being asked to move. He’s pretty certain nobody is there for him.

    I’m not saying ‘dang you for being that way.’ I’m saying ‘what can I do to help you feeling better?’

    PV with Thor in round pen: Head on ground while moving – he’s hiding. No mental participation in what’s going on. He needs help to feel good then you can do anything with him.


    Harry with Ziggy in round pen: Help them respond better to sudden noises. You can’t desensitize them to every sound you’ll ever come across. Ziggy gets stuck then moves big once she moves. Worked with flag and hula hoop.

    Harry with Prince: circling – establish where his mind is. He’ll put his feet where his mind is. ... shouldn’t have to try to make it happen every time his foot comes off the ground.

    JR riding: Harry stays close with a horse who is not responsive and listening. Once they’re listening then can have more slack in the reins. Close enough to get a pretty good hold if he needed. He’s looking for a feel between him and horse. The connection will remain even if “contact” is looser.

    Try to get horse freed up without having to go fast necessarily. Get them thinking forward even if not going fast.

    Fox trot – handbook says trot in front and walk in hinds. Harry says it isn’t that. It is a running walk but just on the edge of being trotty. Four beat broken trot: 1-2, 3-4.

    My ground work and ride with Cajun: I was careful to help him find what I was asking. Looking me up. Ride – stiff but got better. Canter very stiff, reminded me of Scout’s canter. Stiff but lots of try!

    My questions about: riding a line versus riding a path? How much to firm up versus let them wallow a bit and let them find it? (Harry later responded with his story about learning to drive between two ditches…)

    Harry guided me to firm up sooner when Cajun wasn’t responding to “stop” or “back up" requests from me.

    Listening to SH teaching a riding lesson: Bring your energy through inner calves into core and forward. Have your energy send horse forward. Use rate of seat to rate gait. Be black and white with the horse (regarding transitions).